For Immediate Release

March 14, 1999

Transcript of Rep. Dicks' Remarks on Meet the Press

        GUESTS:
        SAMUEL "SANDY" BERGER
        National Security Adviser

        Representative NORMAN DICKS, (D-Wash.)
        Ranking Member, Select Committee on Technology Transfers to China

        Senator RICHARD LUGAR, (R-Ind.)
        Foreign Relations Committee
        Intelligence Committee

        PATRICK BUCHANAN
        2000 GOP Presidential Contender

        MODERATOR/PANELIST:
        Tim Russert - NBC News

        PANEL:
        David Broder - The Washington Post

        [second program segment -- Rep. Dicks / Sen. Lugar]

        MR. RUSSERT: And we’re back. Senator Richard Lugar, let me start with you. Do you believe that the Clinton White House has been aggressive enough in reacting to allegations of Chinese espionage at Los Alamos?

        SEN. LUGAR: Well, the basic problem is the administration has to come clear with the people of this country and the Congress. My knowledge of all this came from The New York Times eight days ago, and I think that was true for most members of Congress. And I compliment Congressman Cox and Dicks for really bringing this to the fore, not the administration. And now that it’s here, we really need to find out what the security threat is to our country from developments that may have occurred in the mid-’80s, but are clearly confronting us now—a long-range missile with many warheads.

        We’re about to have a missile defense debate on the Senate floor that was designed to stop a rogue state with a single shot, perhaps North Korea or Iran or what have you. Now, we really have to take a look at China. Somebody must address that and address that very swiftly. And particularly in the missile defense situation, we’ve been threatened by the Chinese with dire consequence if we have the temerity to defend Japan, and include Taiwan in that. Now, we’re going to have to make clear when the president meets with the prime minister that we are going to defend Taiwan against missile attack by the Chinese, and that if they insist upon putting a battery of missiles there, there are consequences to that. That is the kind of policy change I think is imperative, and I hope the Congress will engage the president and do so very promptly.

        MR. RUSSERT: So when the president meets with the Chinese prime minister in a few weeks, he should raise the issue of espionage at Los Alamos and also say, "If you dare attack Taiwan, there will be serious consequences. It will be considered an attack on the United States"?

        SEN. LUGAR: He should discuss the espionage in the context that we now believe the Chinese have intent to have a missile that could hit the United States of America, not just with one shot, but with multiple re-entry vehicles hitting several cities at one time. And we need to find out what their intentions are. I accept the fact that they spy on us. Many people do, and they’ve had some success. But the consequences of that success are very serious. They are not, I believe, known to the American people or to members of Congress, and, therefore, our foreign policy vis-a-vis China needs very serious review.

        MR. RUSSERT: Congressman Norm Dicks, how widespread is Chinese espionage in the United States?

        REP. DICKS: Well, I think it’s very serious, very significant. They have an effort to gain technology from every part of American life. What we saw out at the labs was, of course, the most serious part of that espionage effort, and I’m glad that the president had a presidential decision directive and ordered Pena and Richardson to clean up the mess at Los Alamos. And our committee has added money, the Intelligence Committee, to deal with the problem. We need to have both Democrats and Republicans working together to make certain that we’ve got an effective counterintelligence program at Los Alamos.

        MR. RUSSERT: But the administration learned about this in 1996. In 1997, in April, the FBI said, "Take away his security clearance," and he stayed in his job until just this last Monday.

        REP. DICKS: Tim, these are always hard problems about weighing investigations versus putting somebody out of his job into a different area. Now, I think they were slow to react to that, but I’m glad that Secretary Richardson fired this individual. And the FBI tells me that these cases are much different than the Russian cases, where you had money exchanging hands, dead drops at the middle of night. These agents act differently, and it’s a much different problem and a harder problem for the FBI. That’s why our investigations have not been as successful.

        MR. RUSSERT: Now, you and Congressman Cox of California have worked very hard on a select committee of technology transfers to China investigation.

        REP. DICKS: Right.

        MR. RUSSERT: You have a 700-page report that is scheduled to come out next week or soon thereafter. The White House has been accused by some of dragging its feet and declassifying some of that information. Will your report come out, and what...

        REP. DICKS: Yes.

        MR. RUSSERT: It will? When?

        REP. DICKS: I think it will come out in a matter of 10 to 15 days, hopefully, by the end of this month. I don’t believe the White House is dragging its feet on this at all. In fact, when we look at other reports, it takes a while to do this declassification because you’ve got to protect sources and methods—people that have cooperated with the United States, whose lives could be threatened if information is improperly presented. So we have to do this carefully, and—so I don’t criticize the administration on that score at all.

        MR. RUSSERT: What’s the most important thing the American people will learn from your report?

        REP. DICKS: The most important thing that they will learn is that for 20 years, starting in the ’80s, we had a major counterintelligence failure at Los Alamos and at the other national labs that is now being corrected but will only be corrected if we stop playing the blame game and start working together to make sure that the resources are provided and the oversight is provided to implement that plan. And Ed Kern has been brought over from the FBI. I think he is an outstanding individual who can restore security at the labs, but we need to get behind this effort and make sure it happens and that’s the most important conclusion that we reached.

        MR. RUSSERT: How serious damage was done to our national security by the leaks at Los Alamos?

        REP. DICKS: Well, let me put it this way, today, the United States still has overwhelming nuclear and conventional superiority over China. We have 18 trident submarines, 50 MX missiles, 500 minutemen threes and three intercontinental bombers that can reach China. They possess less than two dozen ICBMs with the capability of reaching the United States. I mean, we went against Russia for 20 years with nuclear parity. We have overwhelming superiority here and I think we deter the Chinese from even considering an attack against the United States. So I think we have to keep this thing into proportion. Not panic, but let’s get together in Congress and make sure that this counterintelligence plan is implemented. That’s the thing we need to focus on.

        MR. RUSSERT: Senator Lugar, in light of these allegations of Chinese espionage, in light of the State Department human rights report which shows the Chinese record is atrocious and declining, has the administration’s policy of engagement towards China worked?

        SEN. LUGAR: Well, engagement is not the point. We have to be visiting all the time with a great power like China, but we’ve not made great headway on human rights, and that’s critically import. The openness of Chinese society brings whistle-blowers over there—some check and balance of their closed society situation. We’ve not really made headway on the World Trade Organization or the trade situation because the Chinese still believe they’re going to backload all the reforms later on. We have to make sure they know they’ve got to play by the rules and that has to be transparent to Congress and to the American people. The thing that I fault is that all of this has been occurring behind closed doors, and the allegations, therefore, of campaign contributions, of delay and so forth, are bound to come due to the mistrust of the administration on these issues.

        MR. RUSSERT: Before we go, Senator, Mr. Milosevic in Belgrade—if he does not allow NATO troops into Kosovo, should NATO bomb him?

        SEN. LUGAR: Well, I would just defer here to those who are on the scene. I believe the bombing strategy has great faults in terms of what we hope to achieve, as I understand in Kosovo. I would think here a review of the entirety of the Yugoslav strategy is in order because what we’re doing in Kosovo is not working very well.

        REP. DICKS: Tim, one quick point...

        MR. RUSSERT: Congressman Dicks.

        REP. DICKS: ...in our investigation, we found that campaign contributions played no role in any decision that was made. I asked witness after witness, "Were you put under any pressure to change a decision on a national security matter because of political influence," and the answer was no in every case.

        MR. RUSSERT: Does Congressman Chris Cox, Republican, share that view?

        REP. DICKS: I think Chris would say that we didn’t look at this carefully enough, so we really don’t know. But I’ll just tell you this, I asked those questions, and not one official said that he was put under any pressure by anyone in this administration.

        MR. RUSSERT: Congressman Norm Dicks, Senator Richard Lugar, thanks very much for joining us this Sunday morning.


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